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The Tale of Ali Baba and his 9 Wives
by S.E. Ansley
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x S.E. Ansley   - at 11:40 am on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
x The classic story of a legendary man. x
x S.E. Ansley Ali Baba and his 9 Wives The Desert of Sultans - Ali Baba was a good man. He loved his wife, nine of them in fact, but his heart truly went out to one.

She was his best friend, his inspiration, his confidant, and most loyal, trusted supporter. She'd hose down the donkeys, milk the camels, trim his beard and clip his toenails. He built her a castle with his own hands, filled it with cuddly llamas, and ensured pies and luscious cream were readily available for her in the pantry. They loved each other very much.

Ali Baba had eight other wives. Most of them were very close friends who he had met over the years of his travels and cared about all of them. For the most part, Ali Baba had great taste in women. He enjoyed the freedom of meeting new people, men and women, and getting to know them on intimate and spiritual levels.

He met his second wife when he needed an accountant, to take care of his finances. She was helpful and efficient, and their days of counting gold bullions together turned into a brief affair. They made love on a stack of jewels, and never loved again. But they did get married and she continued to do his taxes. They enjoyed wind surfing and canoe building together.

His third wife came by chance. He was searching for hidden water in the desert when a mirage unfolded before him: it was an ocean. The desert turned into beach, the beach turned into a dance party, and the dance party turned into a very bad headache the next morning. So he visited the infirmary, where a nurse tended to his wounds and quickly became a trusted friend. They were married shortly after, and she was his healer.

His fourth wife turned out to be a bitch and a whore, but Ali did not discover this until after the wedding. She was a one-month-stand with enormous breasts and a huge, tight ass gone wrong, and she used him for his wealth and his donkey. While he never forgave her for that sinful act, the two put differences aside to form a deadly tag team poker duo, where they sometimes won a little bit of money (she was also a massive cheater).

Ali Baba's fifth wife was a scholar, who studied at the Sultan's University, and was simply a brilliant mind. She could turn water into energy, and built a prototype of a clean water-fuelled cart that pulled donkeys around the desert, instead of the other way around. They became very close, and she befriended the other wives, which ended in sadness. Everybody was devastated when she was found slaughtered, hacked up and skinned by the head of an oil company. Ali Baba cried non-stop for weeks. The oil company's bullion shares went up.

By Ali Baba's sixth wife, he developed new tastes and appetites for exotic foods. He hired a chef, she cooked the most marvellous meals. He married her for her stuffed roasted monkey, the most sensational delight that wet his palette, and in turn, he wet hers. Their romance was intense, sinful, and had the aroma of a warm fishy loving by the coast.

Seven was a lucky number for Ali Baba. She became Ali's first wife's best and closest female friend. Ali was so delighted, he married her, and the three travelled the seven seas together. They tried a threesome once, but it was weird and uncomfortable. They all remained friends, and went infiltrating together whenever a palace was abandoned.

The eighth wife was another jewel for whom he cared deeply. She was athletic, fit, fast, and beautiful. She kept him in shape with daily runs and aerobics. She also had a strong opinion on politics, which helped him widen the scope of his perspective. Another wife who was readily accepted and cared for by the others.

The ninth and final wife came when Ali Baba was becoming quite old. They met as hostages on a pirate ship, which was targeted for a suicide explosion in the Lairs of Zion. They confided in each other, in their depths of misery, and between their sharp yet scurvy-bitten minds they escaped the ship before it was intercepted by a beast of the sea. They rode a whale to the shore, ran from rabid pygmies and hid in a sand bank until rival pygmies wiped the others out - three weeks later. Their bond was so strong in their adventurous survival that they married, and danced, and loved. The escape took its toll on his health, the healer healed, the accountant made spreadsheets, his cook cooked, and his love loved.

Between his wives he was well taken care of, and most of them took care of one another.

At the end of Ali Baba's life, he died surrounded by eight of his surviving wives, in the arms of his first and most loved wife.

His final words, "I loved many a wife, but you, First Wife, were my best friend", drowned out with a gasp, and Ali was buried deep under the sands of a vast swallowing desert. The wives cried, and moved on with their lives.

The moral of this story is that love is too grand a feeling to restrict to one other person, pastime, hobby or object. When you have learned how to love in genuine, unselfish and equally giving terms, you have learned how to love forever. Love should be shared with as many people as you can love, without interfering with your loves for other things.

Share love, love love, rejoice in love. Ali Baba did, and he led a very good life. Even when he caught that whore taking it from his donkey.
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x Unread post xLaff Yurbatov   - at 11:57 am on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Laff Yurbatov What a nice read!

Thanks Sea!
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x Unread post xJess   - at 12:05 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess Ali Baba sounds like a pretty useless guy. His wives could have left him and started their own successful nation with their combined talents and resources, leaving Ali with his well-deserved donkey.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 12:06 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea write your own story.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 12:11 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc Why did BillyT pose for the cover ?
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x Unread post xJess   - at 12:13 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess I've written several in my own forum. You've just never bothered to read them.
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x Unread post xZoe   - at 12:40 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Zoe i agree with jess
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x Unread post xVictoria   - at 12:44 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Victoria The story reminded me somewhat of King Alobar in Jitterbug Perfume by Tom Robbins.

It's also awe-inspiring to rejoice in the discovery of ONE who encompasses all of that love and friendship, who you can love forever, genuinely and unselfishly AND still be able to love the world and be loved by it!

I have discovered ONE!
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 12:49 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea I think it's selfish.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 12:56 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "I have discovered ONE! "

"I think it's selfish. "

Whether or not you're naturally monogamous or whatever must be more than an intellectual decision, right ? There's at least some biology involved.

So any individual's ideas on the matter are tied to who they are and how they are made up. Expecting other people to behave the way you do (either to be monogamous or polygamous) is irrational.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 12:56 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc And ... again ... WHY IS BILLYT on the COVER ?!?
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 1:03 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea I see both sides.

If you commit your full love to one person and that person dies, changes or ends things, that's pretty devastating, so why put all your eggs in one basket?
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 1:04 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea it's greed vs. selfishness. there are no clear winners.
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x Unread post xVictoria   - at 1:07 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Victoria Sounds like fear and dissatisfaction
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 1:12 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "If you commit your full love to one person and that person dies, changes or ends things, that's pretty devastating, so why put all your eggs in one basket? "

An intellectual decision. Not.

"it's greed vs. selfishness. there are no clear winners. "

People who are not built like you biologically are greedy ? Not.


We like to think people are like us but they're not. That's why murder is illegal. There are people out there who would do it, so we need a way to deal with that dissimilarity.

There are more monogamists then murders though. I hope.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 1:13 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea

Posted by Victoria:

Sounds like fear and dissatisfaction


works both ways. jealousy comes through fear of losing the other person.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 1:15 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea

Posted by Marc:

We like to think people are like us but they're not. That's why murder is illegal. There are people out there who would do it, so we need a way to deal with that dissimilarity.


Oh yes, placing laws sure cuts down on murders! Laws don't do anything other than deal with messes after they happen.

Note that I have only been exploring both sides of the argument in the past year, not even.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 1:24 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "Oh yes, placing laws sure cuts down on murders! Laws don't do anything other than deal with messes after they happen."

I think it does.

If you read Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel" he details interviews with aboriginal peoples and the miserable amount of murder, retaliatory murder and so on that they reported.

Laws arose out of civilization.

"Note that I have only been exploring both sides of the argument in the past year, not even. "

I consider my self a cultural Vasco Da Gama as well.

Boards are good for this.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 1:42 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea there are laws against smoking pot but how many people smoke pot?
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 1:45 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "there are laws against smoking pot but how many people smoke pot? "

Ok.... so not all laws are effective.

But my point about murder being illegal was meant to illustrate that people naturally assume others are like them.

Or something like that. I'm confused now.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 1:49 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea I think the majority of people act on common sense. It does not seem right to kill other people, so people don't, hence murder is a good law. Yet so many people smoke pot, which suggests the laws against it are stupid, just like laws against drugs in general. Laws should punish consequences of actions. If you kill or hurt somebody by driving drunk, stoned, etc, then you should be punished. If you smoke pot or drink in a park when there aren't kids around, I don't think you should go to jail for that (something like 10+ years in New York state for the pot thing).
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x Unread post xJess   - at 2:01 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess well I'm sure this is getting off topic, but part of the reason why people are so disobedient about pot laws is because it's fairly common knowledge that the whole reason pot was considered a banned substance had more to do with industry than it did common sense. It wasn't even a prohibition-type thing (since alcohol is arguably a lot more dangerous a substance). It was because the DuPonts et al had a problem with the hemp industry taking such a huge chunk out of their profit margin. So they demonised the whole damn plant and all its uses.

That being said, it's even difficult for some people to take the common sense stance that murder is wrong. Look at how many murders happen regardless of law. Look at how many wars are going on RIGHT NOW. The law is NOT a deterrent for somebody who really wants to take a person's life. A lot of people would willingly turn themselves in and go to jail just so they can enact their revenge (or whatever motive they have.) Read Albert Camus "The Stranger" or Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment" for a classic depiction of this. (Yes. I did in fact have a big existentialist fetish for a while.) So really - I guess the law is there to decide the difference between premeditated "murder" and "manslaughter" and then mete out punishment accordingly.
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x Unread post xVictoria   - at 2:01 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
x jealousy comes through fear of losing the other person x
x Victoria Absolutely! Being distrustful of faithfulness is damaging but once ANY setbacks are overcome, then you can feel satisfied with the the great bond that is shared.
It is more selfish to NOT put all of your eggs in one basket
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x Unread post xJess   - at 2:26 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess I think "faith" is key to faithfulness.. It's sort of the idea that you can forgive *and* forget transgressions regardless. However, if you find yourself constantly having to do this, then you have to examine whether your faith in the other is misplaced.

Faith and faithfulness can be quite easy in fact. Going back to my new hobby - the tarot - the card of the fool (in more traditional decks) shows him about to walk off the edge of a cliff, thus taking a leap of faith. It's easy to do this when you turn a blind eye to fear. It's less easy to do it repeatedly if you the inevitable fall is a bad one and you fail to learn anything from it - this is where fear can blind *you.* He is accompanied only by his faithful dog and a smiling, benevolent sun.

The hermit card on the other hand shows an old man with a lamp - his own guiding light - with eyes turned to the path at his feet. He is cautious and also alone. In fact, (I could be wrong on this) but he is the mature version of the fool. He has completed a phase of his journey, learned his lessons and has found a form of self-assurance through all of this.

The lovers card is probably the most pertinent to this discussion and an earlier one in the major arcana. It depicts a choice we all make. In some decks it's a choice between purity (the "good" girl) and passion (the worldly matron.) In other decks the choice isn't between two women so much as just a general choice one makes (will have to look that one up) - falling in love is usually about making a choice or many choices along your shared path. Or so I think anyway..

You can learn a lot about human nature from something as irreverent as a deck of cards. smile
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Edited by Jess on April 22‚ 2005 at 1:26 pm
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x Unread post xLaff Yurbatov   - at 2:42 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Laff Yurbatov How out of touch with our animal sides are we? The jobs of men and women with respect to humanity, are to reproduce and keep our species alive. Our instincts are constantly repressed...especially our sexual instincts.

So many jokes about women wanting a secure man or "family", and so many jokes about men only thinking about sex. There is some truth to this and it's biological, not societal. A (healthy) man is able to fertilize any woman who has not reached menopause, for the entire duration of his life. Women stop being able to reproduce. That's why men are attracted to young and voluptious women - because they exude fertility. Men like tits because they look like asses and near the ass is the place where you put your fertilizer.

If you consider the construction of the male & female sex organs, you can speculate on the difference in emotional or mental attachment to sex. Men are external, so to them sex is external and has little to do with real emotion. Women are internal and there is a deeper emotional/mental attachment because of it. With this in mind, one could argue that polygamy is natural.

Religious belief had/has much of the world subscribing to monogamy and let's not forget that the state has been controlled by "The Church" for a long time. Why do you think homosexual marriage is such a controversy? Religeon is just another name for "law", using the fear of God rather than the fear of jail as a deterrent.

Most people are in denial of their own true beliefs and are just trying to be good, law-abiding citizens so they don't go to jail, or hell, whichever or both that apply.

Polygamy is only wrong here because it's not accepted by most people, not because of its fundamental principals.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 3:48 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc Some truth there for sure.

"Most people are in denial of their own true beliefs and are just trying to be good, law-abiding citizens so they don't go to jail, or hell, whichever or both that apply. "

I'd like to add a few other groups:

1) Those who obey 'norms' because they are wise enough to see the results of any disgressions they may commit.
2) Those who have no desire to stray outside of norms.

"Polygamy is only wrong here because it's not accepted by most people, not because of its fundamental principals. "

As you point out, women (mostly) bio-programmed to hate it, men (mostly) bio-programmed to like it.

And people generally, in this thread and otherwise, expect others to behave as they do.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 3:48 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc ...and why did BillyT pose for this cover ?...
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 4:14 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea I already answered that, can it. I'm not sure men are pre-programmed to accept it, I sure wasn't. It's a choice people learn along the way of their lives. Many women do it too - see: slutty women.

good points Laff.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 4:20 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess You see, it seems to me that this "spreading the seed" argument is really just a big con game to shirk responsibility for one's actions. You can blame biology or whatever, but then that makes you no better than a feral animal.

I'm sure it works both ways, too in that women are prone to overactive nesting instincts; but arguing that it's just biology doesn't really provide a solution does it? It's an excuse and a shortcut to real self-examination.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 4:24 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea For the umpteenth time, you as a woman have no - and I repeat, NO - idea what it feels like to be a man. You have no clue. If 99% of men say they have these urges, then why not believe them? You think it's a fucking ploy to lure women into bed? It's as biological as your periods or "maternal" instincts. Our "paternal" instinct is to ejaculate. We are creatures, like every other species. Our goal is to replicate, with very little else. Because we are advanced enough we have medicine, surgery, transplants, know what foods are good and bad for us, and we live a long time. Everything else is wasting and passing time until we die, simple as that.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 4:32 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess Wow no wonder you want to kill yourself. What a boring, empty and pointless point of view.

And you presume to know how I feel? Like I've never been horny before? Please.. Cry me a river.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 4:33 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea it's just the way it is. We serve as much a purpose as the cows we eat and the plants we destroy.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 4:35 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess Really? And if you believe that, then why do you go to such great lengths to throw events?
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 4:38 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea They make my life exciting and full in the short term while making as many other people's lives as similarly enjoyable as possible. What, you think there's a greater good that is supposed to come out of them?
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x Unread post xJess   - at 5:01 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess That's really up to you, isn't? It's not my job to find a higher purpose in *your* life.

Try thinking outside of the short-term, if that's possible. Dig into the past if you have to.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 5:03 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea not saying it is. I'm saying I kinda want to live my life myself, possibly alone.
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x Unread post xLaff Yurbatov   - at 5:05 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Laff Yurbatov

Posted by Jess:

You see, it seems to me that this "spreading the seed" argument is really just a big con game to shirk responsibility for one's actions. You can blame biology or whatever, but then that makes you no better than a feral animal.

I'm sure it works both ways, too in that women are prone to overactive nesting instincts; but arguing that it's just biology doesn't really provide a solution does it? It's an excuse and a shortcut to real self-examination.


For me this is a result of real self-examination...and what's there to solve?
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 5:08 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "what's there to solve?"

If two people care about each other but one or the other has to make a huge sacrifice in order to make it work, then it's a problem.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 5:11 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea I don't see it as a problem other than if it has to be one way or the other and a "unique" compromise can't be worked out, I'll happily go on my own way. Sure it will be very hard at first, but time heals all wounds, and death down the road absolves them.

Humans can never achieve absolute freedom if they're tied and bound to somebody else. I would rather be free, than tied down, I am caged by nobody unless I choose to be where I am, not to a place, not to a person, not to friends, not to a philosophy.
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x Unread post xLaff Yurbatov   - at 5:15 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Marc:

"what's there to solve?"

If two people care about each other but one or the other has to make a huge sacrifice in order to make it work, then it's a problem.


Only if you consider it a sacrifice and that's just a matter of subjectivity. Sacrifice and acceptance are close but very different.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 5:16 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess

Posted by Laff Yurbatov:

For me this is a result of real self-examination...and what's there to solve?


So you're basically saying that you're nothing more than biological urges and that the sum total of your existence comes down to how many offspring you can leave behind (nevermind caring for them and making sure that they grow and develop into something that doesn't contribute to an overpopulated and unsustainable planet?)

I suppose whatever makes you "happy."
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 5:17 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea zer0g mentioned something recently about only humans have meaning, the universe's existence doesn't have to have a reason or meaning for anything.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 5:22 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess Only humans feel the *need* to have meaning. Those of us with souls, anyway. Not all humans do, of course. Many of us are really nothing more than animals, driven by basic instincts such as the urge to reproduce as Laff has so insightfully pointed out.

But I think we have the potential for much, much more. Just a theory I suppose, and maybe wishful thinking; but I prefer to think that I was put in this place for a reason. That for all the suffering I've endured and the joy that I have experience in kind, there is something beyond all this driving me to carry on.

Could just be to prolong my suffering so someone/thing else can feed off it. Maybe one day I'll find out and maybe not. That's the paradoxical beauty of it.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 5:27 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea Unless we're from another planet then I doubt it. Take another whiff of the pig abatoir and tell me what nature has in store for us.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 5:28 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess And freedom is pretty subjective there, too. It has nothing to do with "being" tied to another person but rather "feeling" tied to another person.

A prisoner can find freedom by refusing to eat and slowly starving to death.

"Give me liberty or give me death" -- one still has the freedom of thought and choice.

You can find freedom by changing the way you think.

"The truth will set you free"

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"

..and so on..
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 5:29 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea If I'm tied to a prison wall, I'm pretty sure that it is not freedom, despite it being that I'm tied, as well as feeling that I'm tied, because I am.

there is a difference in "being good" and "feeling good" too.
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x Unread post xLaff Yurbatov   - at 5:30 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Laff Yurbatov This is where the spiritaulity element comes into play in this thread...

If we're talking soul, then what exactly are the bodies for? These are temporary vessels for our souls...

I think it'd be silly to exclude either the soul or the body, seeing how they're partnered up at least for this lifetime.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 5:31 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "Humans can never achieve absolute freedom if they're tied and bound to somebody else. I would rather be free, than tied down, I am caged by nobody unless I choose to be where I am, not to a place, not to a person, not to friends, not to a philosophy. "

It sounds to me like you're tied to a philosophy here. ie. That I (ie. me, Marc) can never be absolutely free. I guess I can't by definition, though so...

And people change over time - not only years but day to day. Your feelings of wanting to be independent seem to me to run hot and cold. That's not an accusation of anything. I vascillate too. I don't like to talk about quitting smoking after I have 'cause I realize that it's probably going to last ten minutes.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 5:32 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "I think it'd be silly to exclude either the soul or the body, seeing how they're partnered up at least for this lifetime. "

The mind is the bridge between the soul and the body.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 5:34 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea

Posted by Marc:
It sounds to me like you're tied to a philosophy here. ie. That I (ie. me, Marc) can never be absolutely free. I guess I can't by definition, though so...



no, it's called I lived on a roof in the open air for a year and had no responsibilities other than to keep myself motivated and alive.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 5:35 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess You can still travel and explore while asleep. It takes training and practice, but if you are chained to a wall, it is still possible to escape.

Consciousness doesn't just live in the body. We can have more than one body, in fact. We can even have several "physical" bodies existing simultaneously. There are esoteric school that have taught these principles for centuries.

For those with eyes to see and ears to hear..
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 5:35 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc This from Laff:

"Only if you consider it a sacrifice and that's just a matter of subjectivity. Sacrifice and acceptance are close but very different. "

I fell off the cliff on this. Don't know what you're saying.

The scenario I pointed out is a problem.

Two people. One outcome. One sacrifice.

You can alter the problem by adding workarounds, but then it's a different problem. The toughest thing in a relationship is *having* to share when you really really don't want to.

When you really really want to see that concert but her friend from Vancouver is in town for that night only.

That's the test of love, IMO.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 5:39 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "no, it's called I lived on a roof in the open air for a year and had no responsibilities other than to keep myself motivated and alive. "

Wouldn't this make you more likely to find a permanent emotional and physical home ?
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x Unread post xJess   - at 5:39 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess It's also the potentiality of growth and personal evolution by sacrificing one's ego. That is essentially what alchemy is all about (albeit in arcane terminology.)
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 5:39 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Marc:
When you really really want to see that concert but her friend from Vancouver is in town for that night only.




so go to the concert yourself? why people must go around and follow and leach around with the other person everywhere is total bullshit and sickening.

couples are repulsive like that. so many whipped people in relationships.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 5:41 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Marc:
Wouldn't this make you more likely to find a permanent emotional and physical home ?


do it yourself and see what thoughts you come up with.

a roamer, roams. Nobody has a true home. We all pretend we have ownership or authority over where we are, but we stake a genuine claim to nothing. Real estate agents buy and sell places and land from a planet they have no entitlement over as commodities, but nature or the universe can wipe us out at any time. And hopefully will soon. What a rush that would be.

I also think if gravity suddenly disappeared and everything floated upwards very quickly, that would be exciting too.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 5:41 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "so go to the concert yourself? why people must go around and follow and leach around with the other person everywhere is total bullshit and sickening. couples are repulsive like that. so many whipped people in relationships"

Nah. It's not like I would resent her for not going to the concert. But I couldn't enjoy the concert knowing that I let her down and didn't get to take part in that gathering that was important.

The loss of the self is more liberating than being able to take off at any time and grab and ice cream sandwich or a beer IMO.
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x Unread post xLaff Yurbatov   - at 5:41 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Marc:

This from Laff:

"Only if you consider it a sacrifice and that's just a matter of subjectivity. Sacrifice and acceptance are close but very different. "

I fell off the cliff on this. Don't know what you're saying.

The scenario I pointed out is a problem.

Two people. One outcome. One sacrifice.




In the context of polygamy vs. monogamy - The "sacrifice" I'm assuming you refer to is that of the woman "letting" the man be polygamous against her wishes, or conversely, the man "settling down" with one partner against his desire to be polygamous. If man or woman changes perspective from it being a sacrifice to it being an acceptance, then there really is no problem at all.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 5:45 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "a roamer, roams. Nobody has a true home. We all pretend we have ownership or authority over where we are, but we stake a genuine claim to nothing. Real estate agents buy and sell places and land from a planet they have no entitlement over as commodities, but nature or the universe can wipe us out at any time. And hopefully will soon. What a rush that would be."

Sure, real estate, ownership, pretty much anything in the human realm is a construct and is more or less built out of thin air.

But...

Just because your house can be destroyed in an instant, or a revolution, or an idea can wipe out something you worked hard for... doesn't mean it wasn't worth doing it in the first place.

I'm having a hard time resolving these ideas of yours with your obviously social tendencies.



"I also think if gravity suddenly disappeared and everything floated upwards very quickly, that would be exciting too. "

That sounds more Fantasia than the Armageddon scenario above, yes.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 5:46 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Marc:

Nah. It's not like I would resent her for not going to the concert. But I couldn't enjoy the concert knowing that I let her down and didn't get to take part in that gathering that was important.


I wouldn't resent her either! I'd go and enjoy the ridiculous sum of money spent on it. You'll see the friend after the concert, or in the future.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 5:47 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "In the context of polygamy vs. monogamy - The "sacrifice" I'm assuming you refer to is that of the woman "letting" the man be polygamous against her wishes, or conversely, the man "settling down" with one partner against his desire to be polygamous. If man or woman changes perspective from it being a sacrifice to it being an acceptance, then there really is no problem at all. "

Right. Simple. Problem solved.

If life were that easy...

In fact, the problem is worse than just one person having to make the sacrifice. Both people see their own choice/un-choice as "normal" and the other's as an acceptable change in their life view.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 5:48 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess um yeah well same goes for the man there, ya know...

but it's still one way or the other in terms of actions vs. consequences. You can put a nice label on it but ultimately it comes down to the fact that you're not really a couple anymore because the woman (or whomever, because it could be the woman screwing around) can just as easily decide that it's not worth the trouble anymore.


The loss of the self is more liberating than being able to take off at any time and grab and ice cream sandwich or a beer IMO.


You could also see it as mastery of one's self.
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Edited by Jess on April 22‚ 2005 at 4:53 pm
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 5:49 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "I wouldn't resent her either! I'd go and enjoy the ridiculous sum of money spent on it. You'll see the friend after the concert, or in the future. "

I wouldn't do that, at least not in the context that I set up this scenario.

Are there examples of behaviors that one does for others, that require self-denial, but that one doesn't feel resentful after doing them ?

Does this make sense to you ?
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 5:49 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea We need perspective from single people on here.
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x Unread post xLaff Yurbatov   - at 5:51 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Marc:



If life were that easy...





Life isn't easy, but living at peace with it is.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 5:52 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess

Are there examples of behaviors that one does for others, that require self-denial, but that one doesn't feel resentful after doing them ?


Before Sea & I started seeing each other I had this huge hang up about privacy and personal space. We started living together almost right away after getting together. My hangups just somehow evapourated with the necessity of making sure he had a safe place to stay. I never really felt resentful about that.

Some other things, yes maybe.. but not the loss of space or privacy.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 5:52 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "You could also see it as master of one's self. "

I would see it that way if I felt that I had made some effort or done something to make it all come about.

But the scenario, at least as it applies to me... just arrived upon me. That's another reason why I wouldn't try to moralize my view on relationshops[sic]/biology/behavior on others. I've been that, done there, and did some over there behind the bush too, and there, and there...

I'm just tired so don't listen to me. Ever.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 5:53 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "We need perspective from single people on here. "

Or people under 30. Seriously.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 5:53 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "Life isn't easy, but living at peace with it is. "

Do you ever get mad ?

Does it bug you when I do THIS ?

How about THIS ?

Or THIS ?
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 5:54 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Marc:

"We need perspective from single people on here. "

Or people under 30. Seriously.


Uh hello I am not quite there yet.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 5:54 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Marc:

"You could also see it as master of one's self. "

I would see it that way if I felt that I had made some effort or done something to make it all come about.

But the scenario, at least as it applies to me... just arrived upon me. That's another reason why I wouldn't try to moralize my view on relationshops[sic]/biology/behavior on others. I've been that, done there, and did some over there behind the bush too, and there, and there...

I'm just tired so don't listen to me. Ever.


Uh oh too late. tongue

I get what you mean. Kinda like the example I just used. It wasn't a conscious effort on my behalf. Just arose out of necessity I suppose.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 5:59 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "Uh hello I am not quite there yet. "

I know that. That's why some of what I... all of what I say is pretty much useless.

I only think about sex 95% of the time as opposed to the 99.99% of the time I did in my twenties.
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x Unread post xLaff Yurbatov   - at 6:04 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Marc:

"Life isn't easy, but living at peace with it is. "

Do you ever get mad ?

Does it bug you when I do THIS ?

How about THIS ?

Or THIS ?


Sure, I get bugged, mad, not claiming perfection or anything. I just believe that we have a simple choice - positive or negative. Does it bother me when you do this? Maybe for a while, until I take responsibility for myself and my own reaction. If I can change my situation so as to not have the trouble of "THIS", then it's my responsibility to do so. I shouldn't make it your responsibility to stop doing "THIS" to me. If there is nothing I can do to change a situation, ie loss of gravity, I can either accept it as fact, move on and adjust or live in denial and lament the loss of the gravity.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 6:04 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea when I say intimate, that doesn't necessitate sex.

I miss getting to know new people deeply and intensely and whatever happens happens.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 6:09 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "Sure, I get bugged, mad, not claiming perfection or anything. I just believe that we have a simple choice - positive or negative. Does it bother me when you do this? Maybe for a while, until I take responsibility for myself and my own reaction. If I can change my situation so as to not have the trouble of "THIS", then it's my responsibility to do so. I shouldn't make it your responsibility to stop doing "THIS" to me. If there is nothing I can do to change a situation, ie loss of gravity, I can either accept it as fact, move on and adjust or live in denial and lament the loss of the gravity. "

You obviously have never been in the sheer hell ying-yang before.

Oh I see you there, Laff, sitting in your smoking jacket and your leather armchair... puffing on your pipe and chuckling softly ever so softly at those of us in life who go through these problems...

And maybe I'm sitting in a chair like that too. But it's ripped up a bit. And maybe I have an old Blue Jays jacket from the 80s with Jimmy Key written on the back instead of a smoking jacket... and maybe, just maybe... my pipe has bubbles coming out of it...

But don't assume you'll never been in the can't-live-with-can't-live-without situation or the fickle dwarves of fate might decide to visit a curse upon you in the female form.

Then you'll end up on COPS, only it won't even be civilized enough to get on the air so you won't even get your lousy $400 release form cheque.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 6:12 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea no gravity = instant death. skyscrapers will hurtle to the heavens.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 6:14 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "no gravity = instant death. skyscrapers will hurtle to the heavens. "

All right, all right.

You couldn't let me have my little floaty care-bare fantasy even for one thread page, could you ?
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x Unread post xJess   - at 6:37 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Marc:

You couldn't let me have my little floaty care-bare fantasy even for one thread page, could you ?


No. Only Sea is ever allowed such a privilege.
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x Unread post xLaff Yurbatov   - at 7:42 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Marc:

You obviously have never been in the sheer hell ying-yang before.


Everyone has their own version of hell. And I've seen my share, don't you worry. Maybe it's what I've learned from being in hell that enables me to see it from this perspective?


Oh I see you there, Laff, sitting in your smoking jacket and your leather armchair... puffing on your pipe and chuckling softly ever so softly at those of us in life who go through these problems...


Not quite. If anything, what I am saying is empowering, not belittling. If only I was aware that I had these choices back when I dealt with my first heart-break...


But don't assume you'll never been in the can't-live-with-can't-live-without situation or the fickle dwarves of fate might decide to visit a curse upon you in the female form.


Victoria. We've had our ups and downs and it's definately been can't live with/without for us. My choice has been to continue with our relationship...I am still learning from her.


Then you'll end up on COPS, only it won't even be civilized enough to get on the air so you won't even get your lousy $400 release form cheque.


Bad boys bad boys...

Bad girls bad girls...

Nobody is above COPS.
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x Unread post xBent Brain   - at 8:08 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
x Wish I had been here the whole time! x
x Bent Brain Okay... I finally got the low down from Laff about what topic was being discussed here today. I feel slightly gifted in that I was able to read this in one long spool instead of trying to keep up with the responses. I am seeing a few threads in this conversation and it starts with Laffs comments about the instinctive motivation for men and women. That ideal is challenging when trying to apply it to humans because we separate that ideal from the animalistic ideology. That is why the call it HUMANITY! We are unable to live in both worlds at the same time, all the time...

I feel that the core issue (assuming that animalistic desires to procreate are one aspect of our motivation) is the culturalization we all seem to be inflicted with to some degree. We have been programmed to attach ourselves to everything. We claim ownership! Universal Sea is speaking gospel when talking about the idea that Real Estate and relationships both have the same system of staking claim on something...

In both cases it is unattainable! The behavioral structures we participate in are based on expectations we use in order to navigate the immense challenge of sharing energy with everybody all day long whether you like it or not!!! The idea that only ONE of ALL the people I encounter in a day could possibly connect with me is obserd, and I choose to remain open to the chance that I might meet someone beautiful. (The idea of gender is deeply ingrained... I don't consider there to be a gap when talking about issues of Economy, Sociology, or Phsycology only in animalism.)

I read the criteria before entering this conversation...
I am under 30
I am single
I have fulfilling relationships with more than one person
and I celebrate overcoming this stupid game of expectations and assumptions by excersising choice!
I feel that One does not HAVE to miss the concert and stay with The Other and their friends. You CHOOSE to! The expectation (or assumption therof) makes you feel bad for having made the choice.

I am not saying that any of it is wrong... I am simply suggesting that we make choices to sacrifice, to comprimise, to assume, and most of all... to not express our true desire (again... I think the reason for withholding our true desires is based on assumption and expectation. AKA FEAR.)

The world revolves around none of us! Even the closest people in our lives want completely different things for themselves than we do... And then flip the coin...

I don't practice monogamy or palygamy. I remain open for the chance that I can connect with someone in a way that comes from a place of desire (sexual and otherwise) I can make that choice at any time I want. I exploit no one and celebrate the choice that my partners make to be with me... Knowing the truth about my beliefs. I celebrate having no claim on anyone in my life...

Try striking the word "my" from your introductions of one person to another and get a glimpse of how deep our indoctrination of ownership really is.

Just a thought!
=)
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x Unread post xVictoria   - at 8:25 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Victoria "Victoria. We've had our ups and downs and it's definately been can't live with/without for us. My choice has been to continue with our relationship...I am still learning from her."

YES! I definitely agree! That's it!
It comes down to being about choice and we have chosen to have our relationship be a monogamous one (it works immensely for us)..
As we can understand both sides - polygamy and monogomy - we have decided what's acceptable for us and only us - AND love it AND eachother AND the world - because that's what we WANT.
After all, we're just humans/animals on this planet with desires and emotions. While we're here, finding that ONE who completely satisifies all of the above and more is sooo cool - AND that's what I define as having the best of both worlds!

To each his own...

I'm still learning too..
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 8:26 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea when are you going to live with each other and when are you going to get married?
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x Unread post xBent Brain   - at 8:32 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Bent Brain I ammend one thing I posted earlier... The only thing we should try to own is our shit! Simply be accountabe for your choices and it is not wrong to make any choice. That means be accountable for the choice to be with a specific person... any person, and be accountable for the expectations we place on others... Consiously or otherwise.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 8:33 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea ...or surround yourself with people of whom your only expectation is that they keep their word, and if they can't, they'll let you know.

too many liars, mischievous distrustful people and non-communicators around.
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x Unread post xLaff Yurbatov   - at 8:34 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by universal sea:

when are you going to live with each other and when are you going to get married?


Who knows! Maybe so, maybe not... Maybe she has to make a choice to go, or maybe I do...for now we've chosen to stay and that could last forever or a day.
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x Unread post xBent Brain   - at 8:36 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
x Here here! x
x Bent Brain Too many is right... Call it fear, programming... I don't care! We need to communicate. We need to tell the truth!
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x Unread post xjeffwith1f   - at 8:56 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x jeffwith1f Nice telling of the tale

I think the concept of multiple wives for multiple needs works as long as it's a fair playing ground and all said wives could have as many husbands as they desired as well, and all parties involved were cool with what was going on.

I can tell you that the most successful relationship that I've ever had is with someone who I am also most inclined to do separate stuff from as well. Zoe and I routinely do separate things, and hang out with other people, and even hang out in the same bar on the same evening but sit with separate groups of people all night.

we know we always come back to eachother at the end of the evening, and it's not at all weird, though people sometimes ask us if we are fighting (the answer is usually no)

certainly into every life there will be separate and equal loves of people and things and activites. We all have the capacity to love many things and people at the same time. In different and the same ways.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 8:59 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
x Thanx Bent x
x Jess I get the feeling we've come full circle to the point where we've all been basically debating the same points from different sides.

Maybe I'm way off there but it seems to me that it's really a matter of free will and trying not to impose our own on others. Relationships should not be about ownership; and if that's how they feel they have become, then it's time to communicate - yes.

One point (I'm not nit-picking here, I'm really not!) is that of identification and attachment. You can choose to be or feel any way you want when it really comes down to it.. So yes, you can own your actions and attitudes, but should not be owned by them at the same time. There comes a point where you have to say, I was once like that but I don't have to be now. I think that's more or less a buddhist principle and has a lot to say about the notion of freedom. Real freedom requires some degree of work. Or so I think anyway....
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Edited by Jess on April 22‚ 2005 at 8:00 pm
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 9:00 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by jeffwith1f:

I think the concept of multiple wives for multiple needs works as long as it's a fair playing ground and all said wives could have as many husbands as they desired as well, and all parties involved were cool with what was going on.


but of course. Ali Baba is a respectful and fair guy. What he can have, so can anybody else, and if somebody's not cool with something, they're voted out of the desert.
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x Unread post xVictoria   - at 9:01 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
x when are you going to live with each other and when are you going to get married? x
x Victoria Exactly! Who knows!
Being happy and satisified with one's own current status is what matters, really
As for us, we're content and satisified with ours, so we don't question it any further..
If and when we choose to, you'll be one of the first to know!
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 9:02 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea I love Jess most of all for the freedom she gives me to be who I am and do what I choose, and I respect her immensely for that. If she ever became unhappy with any of that, I wouldn't expect anything else than for her to take appropriate action, that's cool.

She is the best and our relationship is amazing. I guess I'm greedy in that I want to meet more wonderful Jesses, and help them in their lives.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 9:08 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by universal sea:

I love Jess most of all for the freedom she gives me to be who I am and do what I choose, and I respect her immensely for that. If she ever became unhappy with any of that, I wouldn't expect anything else than for her to take appropriate action, that's cool.

She is the best and our relationship is amazing. I guess I'm greedy in that I want to meet more wonderful Jesses, and help them in their lives.


Thanx baby that means a lot.. kiss

I can't say it's all been easy. I've learned a lot from you but I don't think you're fully aware of how or what - it's more by proxy than anything. In a way you've made me who I am and who you love.

Perhaps my problem is that I *know* I wouldn't meet any other Sea's. You might find other Jesses.. I don't know.. maybe even someone better than me. I see our relationship for what it is and I can't really imagine sharing my life with anybody else..
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x Unread post xBent Brain   - at 9:09 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Jess:


There comes a point where you have to say, I was once like that but I don't have to be now. I think that's more or less a buddhist principle and has a lot to say about the notion of freedom. Real freedom requires some degree of work. Or so I think anyway....


I guess I assumed that our common goal is to grow through these conditionings to become a different person... That point comes, and goes and comes again where we should be proud of what we have become without being what we were...

Sounds like we have a lot of love being projected here and a willingness to engage each other in open conversation... (My first as far as forums go!)

I also love and commend partners on being able to be separate while being together... I think it is very healthy to hang out with different groups and forget about your lover for a while... Power to you if you do so in the same room!
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x Unread post xVictoria   - at 9:09 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Victoria "we know we always come back to eachother at the end of the evening, and it's not at all weird"

That's the best feeling - that to me feels the most free
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 9:15 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea

Posted by Jess:

Perhaps my problem is that I *know* I wouldn't meet any other Sea's. You might find other Jesses.. I don't know.. maybe even someone better than me. I see our relationship for what it is and I can't really imagine sharing my life with anybody else..


not better, that's subjective. somebody who makes me cream on command who yearns for my bent cock and wants to fuck me 5 times a day, maybe.

there are many beautiful people who live in a shell and need encouragement to come out. I don't think you can do that without some level of intimacy and somebody who tries to get the most out of everybody.
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x Unread post xVictoria   - at 9:16 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
x Perhaps my problem is that I *know* I wouldn't meet any other Sea's x
x Victoria I know how that feels!
I know I wouldn't meet any other Ben's (oops, Laff's)
Frankly, I don't want to.
I don't think that's a problem, though.
It's a full feeling, and it's wonderful!
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x Unread post xVictoria   - at 9:30 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
x live and learn x
x Victoria "There comes a point where you have to say, I was once like that but I don't have to be now"

YES!
Acknowledging that and learning from that is strength and freedom
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x Unread post xJess   - at 9:49 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
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x Jess thank you,
that's a very nice way of thinking about it. smile
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 10:17 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
x This is freedom x
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This is freedom

This is freedom

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x Unread post xVictoria   - at 11:13 pm on Friday April 22‚ 2005 x
x THIS is freedom! x
x Victoria   
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 12:54 am on Saturday April 23‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea Something else I don't like about coupledom is how votes are assumed to be two per unit. Usually one each of a stronger and a weaker character, whose roles reverse from time to time, but one is always superior, even if only so subtly.

What I'm saying is green tea.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 12:57 am on Saturday April 23‚ 2005 x
x Titties x
x Universal Sea Oh my point was about following and leading.

I feel like I'm a pope in a school of recruits. Teaching, guiding. When they are strong, I move on. But if too weak, they die.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 1:12 am on Saturday April 23‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea Freedom - Do whatchu wanna do.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 2:24 pm on Saturday April 23‚ 2005 x
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x Jess The best teachers are also students.

I was going to comment that somewhere else about Jesus Christ but it fits better here.

And more subjectivity - what is weak and what is strong? Or as in the Art of War: "Make them think you are weak when you are strong, etc.."

There are more to people than their external behaviours and attitueds
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 4:56 pm on Saturday April 23‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea people grow apart. you can also only give a person so much of an opportunity to change.

people also get old too, when others want to stay young. too bad it has to be so sad.
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x Unread post xVictoria   - at 6:31 pm on Saturday April 23‚ 2005 x
x you can also only give a person so much of an opportunity to change. x
x Victoria There is more opportunity in only giving oneself the opportunity to change their expectations of others
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x Unread post xJzohn   - at 1:54 am on Monday April 25‚ 2005 x
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x Jzohn I particularily enjoy, in this thread, what the women write.

just lump this in with the rest.
If Ali Baba's heart, truly, only went out to one of the nine wives,
then his heart went out falsely to the rest of them? He may have been very stressed,
while caring that bag of lies. but, marriage can take on many forms. while, love is too grande a feeling to restrict.--how true
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x Unread post xBilly_Tascademo   - at 4:22 am on Monday April 25‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Marc:

And ... again ... WHY IS BILLYT on the COVER ?!?


It clearly isn't me. I could never grow lambchops like that.
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x Unread post xBilly_Tascademo   - at 4:24 am on Monday April 25‚ 2005 x
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Posted by universal sea:
I feel like I'm a pope in a school of recruits. Teaching, guiding. When they are strong, I move on. But if too weak, they die.


Is this really how you view yourself, and the people around you?
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 10:35 am on Monday April 25‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea around jess, sure.

around schmucks like you? dunno.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 10:39 am on Monday April 25‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Jzohn:

If Ali Baba's heart, truly, only went out to one of the nine wives,
then his heart went out falsely to the rest of them?


I think that means he could have really lived without all of them except for the first one.
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x Unread post xBilly_Tascademo   - at 10:40 am on Monday April 25‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Marc:

Why did BillyT pose for the cover ?


Or do you maybe mean the chick.

It's been known. For the right price.

For no price, actually.
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x Unread post xJzohn   - at 8:04 pm on Monday April 25‚ 2005 x
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Posted by universal sea:


Posted by Jzohn:

If Ali Baba's heart, truly, only went out to one of the nine wives,
then his heart went out falsely to the rest of them?


I think that means he could have really lived without all of them except for the first one.



I see , well said
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x Unread post xUnderstated   - at 11:29 pm on Tuesday April 26‚ 2005 x
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x Understated I've finally gotten around to reading this thread and have decided that I'm pretty damn immature in these matters (relationships and love). However, I'll contribute my point of view anyway.

When it comes to girls I'm very picky... like VERY picky. I'm 26, and have only had 1 real gf years ago. I'm the type of guy who has a lot of female friends. And I know that even if I get into a serious relationship with a girl, that I'll never stop having all these girl friends. In other words, if I'm in love with a girl and her with me, I (like Ali) will still have all these close relationships with other girls ONLY I won't be having or wanting to have sex with any of them. So basically I believe in monogamy... probably because of my upbringing and parents' influence.

Having said that, I can see myself going two ways when I finally move downtown.
Scenario #1: Finally emerge as the true mack-daddy that I am and finally follow through on all the opportunities that I always get myself in. (But usually back away from).
or
Scenario #2: That I'll happen to find someone who I'm basically compatible with, have a long relationship, and just end up staying together (marriage) out of convenience (settling for the sake of it).

#2 is a little scary to me, because I usually frown upon couples who, in my eyes, are just staying together because of convenience or are simply too scared to step into the water again even though there are clear signs that the relationship isn't really working anymore. To these couples, they mask the word 'settle' with the word 'love'. Getting lazy and saying, "I'd like to break up and see what's out there, but I do'nt think I'll find anyone as good as ____, even though i really don't like ___ that way anymore." Do you know what I mean?
(Again, what the hell do I know... I still have lotsa growing to do.)

Ideally, I'll do lotsa Scenario #1, and end up with a modified Scenario #2 where I won't have a feeling that I'm 'settling' with anyone out of convenience, but actually feeling thrilled and clear-minded that this person is indeed THE ONE for me. Haha... if only it were that easy.

Either way, I know that once I find someone I truly love, that I'll be 100% devoted to her (and of course, her to me).

Oh and one other thing. I don't believe that there's a SOUL MATE out there. I think that there's a number of people who you can live happily with for the rest of your life. It just depends on the degree of the 'settling' factor. Haha... if that makes any sense.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 11:39 pm on Tuesday April 26‚ 2005 x
x interesting on the soul mate thing x
x Universal Sea I think that's an awful lot of planning/speculating and not enough living/letting it play out. That's what being real is about boy, not pretending you have to get real.

As Evren says, slick clothes and contacts and you'd become studly.
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x Unread post xUnderstated   - at 12:07 am on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Understated I'm always about keeping it real... and you know it.

Not enough 'letting it play out'? All I DO, is let things play out.
Nothing wrong with speculating about the future and how I'll behave. It's not about 'pretending to get real' when I know that I already am.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 12:09 am on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea Then everybody's real.

Speculation is based on generating fictitious possibilities. Two options means one of them is not true. That is hardly real.
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x Unread post xUnderstated   - at 12:17 am on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Understated What are you trying to say, that if one of those scenarios plays out that I'll only be pretending to be real because I speculated on what might become of me in the future?

All I know is that whatever situation I'll find myself in the future, I'll act accordingly, and that is real.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 12:32 am on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea WE ALL DO THAT!!

then why say it?
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 12:36 am on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
x next up: Billy T x
x Universal Sea adds a couple of snarky remarks suggesting he's still pouting over very own relationship matters and other people's opinions on them.

yet no perspective of his own.

why waste time worrying about relationships? why should they consume so much effort? what is so important about them?
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 1:09 am on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "what is so important about them? "

I get pleasure from relationships, therefore they are important.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 1:26 am on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea why are they worth feeling miserable about when they go wrong where it affects other things in one's life?
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x Unread post xJess   - at 10:03 am on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Jess same reason it's worth you feeling miserable about your percieved destructive nature.

Some things are just worth more to people than others. Why do you assume everybody has to feel the same way about things as you do?

Same thing again..

You're being myopic and pedantic.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 10:12 am on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
x good x
x Universal Sea dump me. and make ali baba a happy gent.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 10:19 am on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Jess now who's the one pouting about relationships I wonder?
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 10:22 am on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea Not I!

either outcome I have good options and can be happy with.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 12:57 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "why are they worth feeling miserable about when they go wrong where it affects other things in one's life?"

This seems to imply that one has complete control over their emotional state. ie. Should I feel miserable about this situation or not ?

Certainly one has some control over their emotional state, but I've yet to meet a person who has complete control over whether they feel happy/sad/lost over a lost relationship.

Emotions are irrational. They have a life of their own and often they happen whether we want them to or not. They are also a neccessary part of life and human life is meaningless without it.

It seems to me that a great part of life is taken up with resolving our emotional states with the reality we live in.
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x Unread post xjeffwith1f   - at 1:38 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
x the vulcans got it right x
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the vulcans got it right

the vulcans got it right
if only we had total emotional control....i'm sure music would be much more dull though.

http://www.randomimage.us/files/418bdafa35b88.jpg

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Edited by Universal Sea on April 27‚ 2005 at 12:56 pm
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x Unread post xjeffwith1f   - at 1:45 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x jeffwith1f damn it.
image showed in preview.

picture of Spock DJ-ing.
use your minds eye.....
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x Unread post xbalancing act   - at 3:32 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
x Ali Baba moral x
x balancing act Perhaps if you looked a little closer and read this version of Ali Baba 's story again you would see a different twist. Ali Baba loved only one of the wifes. A smart man knows that when he has a good woman he holds her tight to him. But, that doesn't mean that you can't be intimate with the other sex (without sex involved) The other relationships can help build the one you are in....


Ali Baba only loved one of his wifes truly in every sense of love....the hardest thing is not finding love but, loving oneself. That is the hardest tasks a human can face.... so let's make love not war......
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 3:35 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea Why is there a rule or a sin that intimacy with another person can't involve sex? What is that based on?
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x Unread post xbalancing act   - at 3:38 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
x no rule x
x balancing act no rule, no sin... but think about it all intimacy does not require sex. Yes, it's nice,,,, but not necessary...
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 3:44 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea It's a sin in christianity - thou shalt not commit adultery, although Thou Shalt Not Diddle Young Boys or Nuns is not.

Definition of intimacy:


n. pl. in·ti·ma·cies
1. The condition of being intimate.
2. An instance of being intimate.


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x Unread post xbalancing act   - at 3:52 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x balancing act intimate: marked by close acquaintance, association, or familiarity.

A close friend or confidant.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 4:23 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Jess Sea needs to go to a cuddle party sometime. grin
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x Unread post xbalancing act   - at 4:30 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
x all in fun x
x balancing act Don't take it to seriously.. i knew i shouldn't tread in this thread... smile...
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 4:38 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "Why is there a rule or a sin that intimacy with another person can't involve sex? What is that based on?"

Based on laws that were established in early Mesopotamia based on health codes and ways to avoid mayhem in overcrowded cities.

"It's a sin in christianity - thou shalt not commit adultery, "

I think all of the big 3 disallow this sort of stuff, don't they ?

"although Thou Shalt Not Diddle Young Boys or Nuns is not."

Incorrect. This is a form of fornication, which is a sin.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 4:41 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Universal Sea Obesity is a form of fornication then.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 5:58 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
x one note x
x Universal Sea Seeing other people's relationships and openly/honestly debating personal points of view has been very beneficial to my own relationship. Particularly when I chat with pretty much anybody about their relationships. Jess is awesome and I feel a lot safer.

Still nothing other than keeping very busy is keeping my mind off from bang bang bangin'.
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x Unread post xMarc   - at 6:35 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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x Marc "Obesity is a form of fornication then."

I don't follow that...

I guess my response is "no it isn't".

"Seeing other people's relationships and openly/honestly debating personal points of view has been very beneficial to my own relationship. Particularly when I chat with pretty much anybody about their relationships. Jess is awesome and I feel a lot safer.

Still nothing other than keeping very busy is keeping my mind off from bang bang bangin'. "

I wish you could be me for one minute and just feel the weariness I feel when I think of all of the useless couplings I have been involved in through the years. At some point my body just came to recognize the fools gold that lies beneath the vast fields of sexual opportunities. It's always there calling you, but even if you indulge, it's never enough to satisfy.

But you can't know these things intellectually, IMO. You have to feel them.

What's that saying - nothing worth knowing can be learned by the brain ?
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 6:38 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
x oh yeah x
x Universal Sea I need to feel pain to know what I had. I think many of us do, maybe guilt when a loved one dies for not spending more time with that loved one.
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x Unread post xjeffwith1f   - at 7:19 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
x you don't know what you've got till it's gone x
x jeffwith1f I know it's cliche, but...

I lost someone very dear to me for reasons not unlike discussed above.
I wanted more sex (I was 27 after all) she was a bit older, and we had been at it for a long time. She wasn't feeling the passion like she used too...this made me ornary and bounce off the walls and generally an ass. (Why can't I love many people? I sometimes thought, mirroring the original article) this in turn made her pull back, which made me needy for emotional as well as physical affection. which drove her farther away.. dowwards spiral
ultimatly an ending.

while I was under the influence of some very potent hormones within me, it was only a year or so later (as I hit 30ish...your milage may vary) that all of a sudden this whole "I need to bang bang bang all day long" became less of an issue

it's still there, it's just not deal breaking anymore.

While I love my wife dearly, and ultimately am happy where I ended up, I wish I could have gotten my shit together to have not started the problems that ultimately led to the demise of that relationship. It was the best thing that had ever happened to me in my life up to that point, and outside of this bull-shit, there was no reason it had to end.

Sure there were other issues, and sure this is my experience in my relationship and not you and yours...

but I can't shake the "I've been down this path, and I will regret till my dying day how I allowed it to resolve itself" feeling.

fairly warned be ye, says I
Arrrrrr....

Caveat: I'm a sentimental bastard, and I fit into coupledom like one of those round pegs. not for everyone for sure.
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x Unread post xDodd   - at 8:53 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Jess:

Ali Baba sounds like a pretty useless guy. His wives could have left him and started their own successful nation with their combined talents and resources, leaving Ali with his well-deserved donkey.


This is true, but the moral of the story was also true in a sense that few often see.

Speaking of spreading the love,
You can BOTH be right you know?

;-)
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x Unread post xDodd   - at 8:55 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Jess:

Sea needs to go to a cuddle party sometime. grin


OOOOOH!

and methinks someone is projecting just a little bit here. no?
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x Unread post xDodd   - at 8:56 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Jess:

same reason it's worth you feeling miserable about your percieved destructive nature.

Some things are just worth more to people than others. Why do you assume everybody has to feel the same way about things as you do?

Same thing again..

You're being myopic and pedantic.


you know, to say pedantic is to be pedan....hey, wait......and you guys were getting along so well.

Well, for what it's worth *I* Love you guys. So there.
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x Unread post xDodd   - at 8:59 pm on Wednesday April 27‚ 2005 x
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Posted by universal sea:

Why is there a rule or a sin that intimacy with another person can't involve sex? What is that based on?


This is a good and valid question, though the validity of the answer will differ from person to person. For example, I just don't like sex, but having my good close friends around....AWESOME.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 9:27 am on Thursday April 28‚ 2005 x
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x Jess Another caveat:

Just coz Sea & I say nasty things to each other on here doesn't mean we're not getting along. wink

This is often a harsh and inhospitable place.

Frankly I don't know why people keep coming back. huh
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 9:32 am on Thursday April 28‚ 2005 x
x I concur x
x Universal Sea Jess and I have the most wonderful time together, good or bad, we are best friends. We don't fight at all or argue much in person. I think we get out most of our problems here on the board.
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x Unread post xJess   - at 9:43 am on Thursday April 28‚ 2005 x
x Re: intimacy vs. sex. x
x Jess Yes it's possible. Anybody having an especially cuddly relationship with parents or siblings knows this.

I didn't. It's not that I wasn't loved. It was that for some reason as an infant, I was really squirmy and didn't care to be held much. My Dad didn't help by throwing me in the air like most babies enjoy. Bless him.. I would just freeze and look petrified. My mom and brother are very close and hug all the time; but I grew up very independant and not too touchy-feely..

Intimacy isn't the same thing as touching, either. Although touching can be a big part of breaking down boundaries that leads to intimacy. See the shamanic work of Frank Moore for more on pushing such envelopes. We know somebody who does this work and I think I understand the methodology..

Like a lot of things, there are no black/white, right/wrong, ways of approaching relationships. My values aren't the same as others' values. For example, I would prefer you always be honest with me rather than you greet me with a hug everytime we meet or part company. Some people on the other hand need that hug..

Intimacy is almost always based on trust. Whether that be trust in being able to tell your innermost secrets without judgement or trust in being able to provide a shoulder to cry on when life is hard. I think it varies from relationship to relationship depending on how long a time you spend with a person and what kind of quality (hence "quality time") that time is..

I would even go as far to say that I think that people with a greater sense of self are capable of greater levels of intimacy without the fear of "losing yourself." Fear is the greatest killer of intimacy and this leads to hate. It doesn't kill the intimacy so much as leverage it to hurt the other person. If you can love yourself, then this negates the process and intimacy is easier. Or so I think anyway...
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x Unread post xDodd   - at 10:43 am on Thursday April 28‚ 2005 x
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Posted by Jess:

Yes it's possible. Anybody having an especially cuddly relationship with parents or siblings knows this.

I didn't. It's not that I wasn't loved. It was that for some reason as an infant, I was really squirmy and didn't care to be held much. My Dad didn't help by throwing me in the air like most babies enjoy. Bless him.. I would just freeze and look petrified. My mom and brother are very close and hug all the time; but I grew up very independant and not too touchy-feely..

Intimacy isn't the same thing as touching, either. Although touching can be a big part of breaking down boundaries that leads to intimacy. See the shamanic work of Frank Moore for more on pushing such envelopes. We know somebody who does this work and I think I understand the methodology..

Like a lot of things, there are no black/white, right/wrong, ways of approaching relationships. My values aren't the same as others' values. For example, I would prefer you always be honest with me rather than you greet me with a hug everytime we meet or part company. Some people on the other hand need that hug..

Intimacy is almost always based on trust. Whether that be trust in being able to tell your innermost secrets without judgement or trust in being able to provide a shoulder to cry on when life is hard. I think it varies from relationship to relationship depending on how long a time you spend with a person and what kind of quality (hence "quality time") that time is..

I would even go as far to say that I think that people with a greater sense of self are capable of greater levels of intimacy without the fear of "losing yourself." Fear is the greatest killer of intimacy and this leads to hate. It doesn't kill the intimacy so much as leverage it to hurt the other person. If you can love yourself, then this negates the process and intimacy is easier. Or so I think anyway...


This is all consistant with my own thinking as well.
What a great mind-opening forum this is.
I am grateful for the opportunity to share here.
Thank you.
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 10:07 am on Tuesday August 30‚ 2005 x
x Polygamy in Turkey results in inbreeding and Down Syndrome x
x Universal Sea Link: Polygamy in Turkey results in inbreeding and Down Syndrome


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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 8:30 am on Tuesday August 8‚ 2006 x
x Ali Baba revisited x
x Universal Sea This truly was a UM classic.
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x x View the profile for Universal Sea x
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x Unread post xUnderstated   - at 8:55 pm on Wednesday August 16‚ 2006 x
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x Understated i'm going to re-read this thread when i have the time... hopefully sooner rather than later.

i'm in an interesting relationship and i definitely want to lend my 2 cents now that i'm in the midst of this...
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 8:13 pm on Thursday August 17‚ 2006 x
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x Universal Sea you're almost following the ali baba mantra.

I'm in the process of living it out myself, in some ways.
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x Unread post xUnderstated   - at 4:08 pm on Friday August 18‚ 2006 x
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x Understated almost.

i have to have sex w/ the other women in my life first... then i'll be following it. working on it tho...

in the meantime, i'll keep having fun in this ridiculously fun relationship i currently find myself in... so much fun. learning a lot and gaining lots of experience... not to mention the satisfaction of pleasing her.

the Summer of Undie has been epic so far...

september is shaping up to be pretty good too!
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 8:53 am on Saturday August 19‚ 2006 x
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x Universal Sea ali baba wasnt necessarily about sex but companionship
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x Unread post xUnderstated   - at 1:10 pm on Saturday August 19‚ 2006 x
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x Understated ok then i'm full on ali baba.... smile
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x Unread post xjeffwith1f   - at 10:41 pm on Monday September 11‚ 2006 x
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x jeffwith1f this thread again?
fuck it fuck it fuck it

it's so 2005....
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 3:44 am on Friday May 4‚ 2007 x
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x Universal Sea Ali Baba might be a crock of shit. I've found I can only legitimately love one person at a time, and I've tried some of these ideas.

Such a funny article, sometimes I can't believe I can do these things.
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x Unread post xxjeffwith1f   - at 3:31 am on Saturday May 5‚ 2007 x
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x jeffwith1f wide open love requires buy in from all players
and frankly that never happens

as Yoda said in Star Wars Episode III
"jealosy is the shadow of greed"

mmmm
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x Unread post xUniversal Sea   - at 4:09 am on Monday September 28‚ 2009 x
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x Universal Sea lets look back
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